tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-83923751899084745.post3722497761177730499..comments2023-12-04T09:59:55.778-08:00Comments on the glade of theoric ornithic hermetica: Poetry From the Law (part one)Steven Famahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09886207582824520804noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-83923751899084745.post-73719698250322807542009-02-05T11:32:00.000-08:002009-02-05T11:32:00.000-08:00Where do you find the law cases? Is this somethin...Where do you find the law cases? Is this something that you go into a law library and ask, I want to read Dean Vs. Commonwealth, for instance (listed on p. 27 of the law article). Have you read the majority of the cases and compared them to the actual poems?<BR/><BR/>I've now read the article by Watson, and don't find it too bad. I liked it.<BR/><BR/>On a slightly different question -- I have been writing books on poetry. One of them was on Gregory Corso's poetry. Another time I wrote an article on Larry Fagin's poetry.<BR/><BR/>It turned out that my published Texas Tech University Press wouldn't allow me to publish even a single line of Fagin's poetry without his permission, which he didn't give.<BR/><BR/>So the entire chapter was scuttled.<BR/><BR/>Apparently you can cite poetry in an article, but not in a book form, without getting permission. I don't know if there is a clear legal precedent for this.<BR/><BR/>I tried to discover why you can't even publish a single line without permission.<BR/><BR/>One scholar said it was because Yvor Winters had rankled several modernists, and they said he could no longer cite their work, not even one line, because every line is integral to a poem. <BR/><BR/>When I published my book on Codrescu I wanted to use a single line from Charles Olson but was told I couldn't do it without permission by McFarland and Co.'s editor.<BR/><BR/>So I took out the line and paraphrased.<BR/><BR/>As a lawyer interested in poetry would you know anything about his mysterious convention?<BR/><BR/>As far as I am concerned, you needn't publish this in your comments box. I don't really care to have the detail that Fagin wouldn't allow my post to surface (I don't know why he didn't, because I felt the article was an interesting one, but I guess that he didn't!).<BR/><BR/>If you wouldn't mind just replying directly to kirbyolson2@gmail.com<BR/>I would appreciate any light you could shine on this legal problem.<BR/><BR/>I think it's a shibboleth without an actual legal foundation, a kind of rumor floating about scholarly publishing but is not really true.<BR/><BR/>Fair use allows you to use about 8% of a prose document.<BR/><BR/>And fair use allows you to use 60% of a poem in a scholarly article published in a journal.<BR/><BR/>but in a book, every line has to have a permission slip.<BR/><BR/>I think this is because when you use a single line in a novel or something like that you have topay.<BR/><BR/>But I don't think this should be the case in nonprofit book publishing.<BR/><BR/>It's just baffling.Kirby Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05952289700191142943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-83923751899084745.post-53452905670503000982009-02-04T16:56:00.000-08:002009-02-04T16:56:00.000-08:00Thanks too for putting in the links. I didn't see ...Thanks too for putting in the links. I didn't see them originally because usually links are in a different color.<BR/><BR/>This was an extremely helpful post.Kirby Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05952289700191142943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-83923751899084745.post-29929704228171036822009-02-03T12:48:00.000-08:002009-02-03T12:48:00.000-08:00Yes, I don't like that notion that the world is so...Yes, I don't like that notion that the world is some kind of floating Platonic ether. It's specific to a given locale, its precise immigrants, its precise streets.<BR/><BR/>This just goofs everything up.<BR/><BR/>He made a bad decision.<BR/><BR/>People have specific names which tell you a lot in and of themselves about their histories.<BR/><BR/>People live in specific places with specific industries and specific kinds of crime.<BR/><BR/>Poems should be direct notations. Everything else is useless, I think.<BR/><BR/>Hysperia is willing to buy a volume. I have volume 2 which I will sell for 149.95. It's in reasonably good shape.<BR/><BR/>Saves her a nickel from her original offer.<BR/><BR/>But honestly most libraries have these volumes.<BR/><BR/>kirbyolson2@gmail.com, if interested.<BR/><BR/>I still can't understand why he did this. It's just infuriating. I never read his volume on the Jews of Charleston but I hope he didn't play fast and loose with the facts there, too.<BR/><BR/>Facts are more beautiful than fictions.Kirby Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05952289700191142943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-83923751899084745.post-68314369160071315662009-02-03T08:29:00.000-08:002009-02-03T08:29:00.000-08:00Hi again Kirby,If you'd like, you can read on-line...Hi again Kirby,<BR/><BR/>If you'd like, you can read on-line Benjamin Watson's great essay on Testimony. There's a direct link to it (two, in fact) in my post here, one indicated by the words "click here" in the paragraph in which the essay is first mentioned.<BR/><BR/>Also, and as I mentioned -- and as Reznikoff himself mentions in a short prefatory note to the poems -- the names of all persons, towns, and cities were CHANGED in Testimony. He also simply elided proper names in many poems: writing for example "the man," "the boy," or "the woman" instead of the person's name as given in the case reports.<BR/><BR/>He changed or did not use names even though they were a part of the public record (stated in the court decision published in the case reporter). Probably though Reznikoff wanted to keep people's name private, since the case reporters are not readily accessible to most, even when first published.<BR/><BR/>But I think there's more to it. That Reznikoff changed or did not use proper names, I think, suggests something about his project. As Watson points out or suggests, Reznikoff wanted to take the narratives out of the strictly personal, or even gossipy, realm. I think he also didn't want his narratives tied entirely to a specific historical incident such as would have been the case if real names and places were kept in). Instead, Reznikoff's method places each poem in what I'd call a more universal perspective. In this way, using the particulars, but not every last one of them, to suggest something about the world.Steven Famahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13733977161680651117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-83923751899084745.post-13157456911989257312009-02-03T08:24:00.000-08:002009-02-03T08:24:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Steven Famahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13733977161680651117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-83923751899084745.post-22167432792751912952009-02-03T07:57:00.000-08:002009-02-03T07:57:00.000-08:00Steven, I think I will keep my copies. I've also o...Steven, I think I will keep my copies. I've also ordered the Watson article through interlibrary loan.<BR/><BR/>I did think that maybe I should put the set on sale for 149.99 since Hysperia said she'd pay that sum (I want some new books), but now that you've given me a way to think precisely about what happens in the poems, I think I can go forward.<BR/><BR/>It bugs me that he changes the cities apparently in some of them.<BR/><BR/>Concision wouldn't be helped by changing a long name like Cincinnati to Peoria, would it?<BR/><BR/>One of the things I like about Reznikoff is the factual quality. you get that in a lot of Ginsberg's poems, too -- right down to the date.<BR/><BR/>Therefore the poem feels like an intersection with reality, which I like.Kirby Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05952289700191142943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-83923751899084745.post-26668188627783678182009-02-02T17:02:00.000-08:002009-02-02T17:02:00.000-08:00Thanks all for the comments.Joseph, on the prose p...Thanks all for the comments.<BR/><BR/>Joseph, on the prose poems: I hope you get a chance to read them, though let me say: while I'm a big fan of prose poems, the conciseness of the verse settings I think works better with this material. <BR/><BR/>Kirby, I probably should have written that Reznikoff's changes -- those that re-ordered facts from the events as reported -- are relatively minor, in addition to only occurring in some of the poems.<BR/><BR/>Minor because in those poems that do have changes, they are typically very small in number (one or two things). See the example given by Watson at pages 14-15 of his essay. There are about three dozen separate facts set out in that particular poem. Reznikoff changed the order of two or maybe three. <BR/><BR/>Minor also because sometimes the changes are exceedingly minor. For example, in one case, it was reported that a foreman told a worker, "You God damned son of a bitch, you go to work!" In his poem, Reznikoff had the foreman say, "You go to work, you God damned son of a bitch!"<BR/><BR/>Minor also because no change made concerns the major narrative event. Reznikoff NEVER changed the big stuff. The people in the poems don't live or die or break a leg or get shot etc. unless that actually was reported to have happened. This stuff is exactly square all around. <BR/><BR/>As to why Reznikoff made changes, Watson at page 15 of his essay offers the suggestion that concision was a reason. <BR/><BR/>I'd agree, and add what I wrote in the main post here: he did it sometimes, on minor matters, to heighten intensity, either of the narrative or the emotion. <BR/><BR/>I'd also say that sometimes (perhaps as with the change in word order mentioned above), Reznikoff made a change because to his ears it sounded or flowed better in his line if he said it the way that he did. <BR/><BR/>After writing this comment I added a few words to the main post, so that my point about what was and wasn't changed is clearer.<BR/><BR/>And Kirby, if you decide you don't care to read <I>Testimony</I>, and want to sell your set, I'll pay you ten times the two dollars you paid at Amazon and have you send your copies off to hysperia.Steven Famahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13733977161680651117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-83923751899084745.post-79483304417383043802009-02-02T14:45:00.000-08:002009-02-02T14:45:00.000-08:00I enjoyed your piece, and your link to Watson's ar...I enjoyed your piece, and your link to Watson's article which gives a sense of where to find the original articles. <BR/><BR/>What I can't understand is why Reznikoff changed the original contexts. Does he give his rationale for having done this? I would assume that the cases would be in the public domain (or at least many of them would), so why would he alter the context?<BR/><BR/>It makes it more difficult to understand exactly what happened, and to judge them accordingly.<BR/><BR/>What was he thinking when he did this?<BR/><BR/>Are there any speculations?<BR/><BR/>If you keep an eye out at Amazon.com you can sometimes find very cheap editions of Testimony. I got mine for about two dollars. (both halves of the Black Sparrow edition).<BR/><BR/>But I haven't known how to read them.<BR/><BR/>I was wondering if you knew whether in his shorter poems whether he changed the contexts there, too, or whether they are keenly observed slices of real life.<BR/><BR/>Or is it a mix?<BR/><BR/>I always assumed they were just the facts, M'am kind of poems, but now I'm not so sure.Kirby Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05952289700191142943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-83923751899084745.post-22429999455153339672009-02-01T23:54:00.000-08:002009-02-01T23:54:00.000-08:00Amazing work, both Reznikoff and you! Thank you. ...Amazing work, both Reznikoff and you! Thank you. <BR/><BR/>I wish I could buy "Testimony" for less than $150.00.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-83923751899084745.post-11119533261934300532009-01-31T19:25:00.000-08:002009-01-31T19:25:00.000-08:00Marvelous post Steven. Those poems are both extrao...Marvelous post Steven. Those poems are both extraordinary and devastatingly sad.Nicholas Manninghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12750291349639539140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-83923751899084745.post-21761378247220568772009-01-30T16:36:00.000-08:002009-01-30T16:36:00.000-08:00What a terrific piece! I have often wondered about...What a terrific piece! I have often wondered about the exact relation of the poems to the source texts. And prose poems? I don't think I've ever seen them. Curse you, a new quest begins.Joseph Donahuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00392172511244610061noreply@blogger.com